"Let's Talk Therapy" with Leslie Stephens
an interview with a Substack legend who shares a bit from the perspective of client--AND--therapist
Welcome to this tiny corner of the internet where an off-duty psychotherapist keeps the conversation going on how to make sense of this life thing we’re all doing.
This week’s newsletter is an interview series, “Let’s Talk Therapy.” Through these dozen or so questions, you will get a deeper sense of how therapy can look and feel within oneself. Like most things, transparency about an experience can do wonders in deepening our compassion. My sincerest wish is this series will help in normalizing the complex feelings that can arise through doing therapeutic work and empower us to utilize it more wholeheartedly. Also, if I’m honest, I hope to learn even more about the experience of being a client so that I can continue to be an increasingly attuned psychotherapist.
One thing before we jump in, I show up very much as myself here. Myself first, and all my other labels are secondary. If a therapist speaking candidly feels like too much to your system, that is absolutely is OK and this may not be the best particular newsletter for you.
Today’s interviewee is
, writer of the undeniably successful and emotionally robust newsletter (I know! I’m surprised she said yes, too.).
I gathered up the gumption to reach out after reading one of her recent newsletters. In it, she introduced a new series, Plant Studies, where she will be delving deep into the fundamentals of humaning. All stemming from feedback from a professor—she’s in graduate school to be a therapist herself—about how she needed to tend to the plant within her, not the robot. Less perfect, less doing everything you think you’re supposed to do and more knowing the intricacies of what’s inside, rumbling around. In this newsletter she went on to explore the distinction between process and content—in therapy, in life, and on the internet.
As I mentioned when I started this interview series, both are important but, my hope is here we can give a bit more airtime to “How does it feel inside?” (process) and less toward “How does it sound?” (content).
This interview is unique for several reasons, but particularly because mid-way through the interview, for reasons Leslie will soon share, she shifts into answering as a clinician. A little bit of everything today.
First things first: How are you feeling–in this very moment–about volunteering to talk about therapy and mental health?
Completely comfortable! I’m in my third year, and final semester, of my master’s in Mental Health Counseling, and dating a therapist. What else do people talk about??
Kait jumpin’ in. This made me chuckle. As a therapist whose friend group is largely comprised of other therapists, I know what she means. I can forget not everyone else’s day-to-day is about going in and going deep. Sometimes at social events where this isn’t the case I truly feel like an alien from outer space. “Oh, I’m supposed to do more masking and small talk? Got itttt.” I still don’t do it well, but I see the expectation lingering in the air.
Tell us a bit about you.
I live in Portland, Oregon with my partner and pit-mix, Toast and write the bestselling Substack Morning Person, with over 40,000 subscribers. My entire career was in editorial and publishing, until I found myself working at an L.A. lifestyle blog that slowly pivoted to be primarily centered on social media content. While there, I became increasingly alarmed by the impact of social media use—both on creators and consumers, and realized I wanted to be part of the solution, not the problem.
In 2021, I began my master’s in Mental Health Counseling, with a Specialization in Addictions at Lewis and Clark College in Portland. Going back to school has been one of the most impactful experiences of my life—it forced me to reckon with aspects of myself I had never looked at, and catalyzed some major life changes. Basically, my entire world fell apart—my marriage, my sense of self—and I had to build myself back up from scratch. It literally almost killed me, but I’m finally on the other side, and I am so grateful to be here, deeply grounded in myself and living a life aligned with my values.
Reading Leslie’s words here crystallizes why I feel drawn to her work. She’s willing to say, “I don’t know. I think I need to start over. I need to pivot.” And willing to say it publicly, to boot. It’s certainly emboldened me to do the same at times. I feel soothed by someone willing to say they’re not exactly certain, but for now “X” feels true.
I also can’t help but reflect on how going back to school in the counseling field is it’s own excavation waiting to happen. You’re not just learning how to become a counselor, you’re being confronted with yourself. A lot of us go in wanting to help others, quickly realizing we have to start by looking in the mirror. Let’s just say it’s not for the faint of heart.
I’m currently working in addictions and last summer, I published my debut novel, You’re Safe Here, with Scout Press, and I’m currently working on my second!
Tell us about the types of therapists or modalities you’ve tried. Bonus vulnerability points for transparency on how much it cost.
As a client, most of my early experiences with therapists were with clinicians practicing cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT).1 Each time I went to therapy, it was in reaction to something happening—a college breakup, difficult dynamics with my mom, my divorce, larger, existential concerns. I’ve been able to find therapists covered by insurance, with modest co-pays (around $25/session), but I once saw a therapist who charged $300/session. He was great in helping me navigate an acutely difficult time in my 20’s, but not a practical fit for the long-term!
I’ve also had two experiences with couples therapists. The first was with a therapist my now ex-husband selected, and it was an incredibly negative experience. She was very religious and conservative, which neither my ex or I were, and kept making judgmental, passive comments that left me feeling really isolated like, “Usually the man wants to leave a marriage.” And, “A good wife will always stay with her husband.” It felt gross, but we were overwhelmed and I was experiencing so much shame around my desire to leave the marriage that I didn’t speak up. In retrospect, I wonder what would have happened if we’d found a different clinician.
I wince every time I hear someone has had this kind of experience. This wielding of the therapist’s worldview (demonstrating the outdated and oppressive varietal in this example) as a clinical perspective is exactly the thing we want to avoid. While what I’m about to say is purely anecdotal, I hear this kind of feedback more often regarding couples therapy. Perhaps that realm–relationships–is more likely to pull on one’s biases and scripts about how things are “supposed to go.” Regardless, if you notice this with your provider, it’s OK to articulate your sensing of their belief systems interfering with the work and/or terminate the relationship. Anything that gets in the way of you hearing yourself and what you believe is a concern.
In the last few weeks, my current partner and I began seeing a therapist to help us navigate some communication issues, and it’s been an overwhelmingly positive experience. It feels like we’re working with the therapist, toward our goal of strengthening our relationship and building a foundation that will hopefully hold us for the long-run!
In terms of the modalities I practice as a clinician, I find myself drawn towards psychoanalytic and existential approaches. Mark Epstein, in particular, is a huge inspiration to me—he conducts therapy from a Buddhist-psychoanalytic perspective.
EEEeee (my nerdy parts begin to jump up and down) Leslie is introducing some new stuff I haven’t had the chance to explore here yet. Let’s break these down:
According to Psychology Today, the psychoanalytic approach is “a form of in-depth talk therapy that aims to bring unconscious or deeply buried thoughts and feelings to the conscious mind so that repressed experiences and emotions, often from childhood, can be brought to the surface and examined. Working together, the therapist and client look at how these early hidden and stifled memories have affected the client’s thinking, behavior, and relationships in adulthood. This therapy is based on Sigmund Freud’s theories about psychoanalysis” whereas, existential therapy, “focuses on free will, self-determination, and the search for meaning—often centering on the individual rather than on their symptoms. The approach emphasizes a person's capacity to make rational choices and to develop to their maximum potential. Some practitioners regard existential therapy as an orientation toward therapy, not a distinct modality, per se. This type of therapy is often useful for patients who experience existential threat or dread when security and identity feel in peril.”
I had heard of one of Mark Epstein’s books, The Zen of Therapy: Uncovering a Hidden Kindness in Life, but admittedly knew very little else about him before Leslie mentioned him here. As I went to go search for an interview with him to learn more—settling on this one with
— I was thrilled to see several of his books are included with Spotify Premium. Only a few moments into the interview with Harris he talked about how improvisational being a therapist is. I literally never thought of it that way until that moment. Really looking forward to diving into The Zen of Therapy next!
What do you notice you feel before sessions?
I recently paused therapy with my therapist, because I realized that between school, clinic, and Morning Person, I don’t have the bandwidth to do the deeper depth work and processing I was looking for in that setting. I also just started a new series on my Substack that dives into deeper topics, like Death + Mortality and Ethics + Meanings, that really fills that space for me, since it requires that I think and process these larger questions, and my relationship to them, for hours every week. For that reason, I answered the questions below as a clinician, rather than as a client!
In terms of how I feel before my sessions, my clinical days are stacked and I use the ten minutes between sessions to write notes, so I generally try to take two minutes to ground and meditate. I spritz a bit of this, if my client isn’t averse to fragrance, and do a quick grounding exercise and check in with myself, so I can show up fully with the next client.
I’m honestly jealous Leslie discovered the importance–and impact–of this quick checking in before sessions during graduate school. It took me (too many) years to develop this kind of ritual.
What is the average session like?
I like to start by asking my clients how their weeks were. From there, I either have a topic I want to visit and guide them into, or I use the context of their weeks to provide context in working towards a larger theme I’ve identified; like a tendency to people-please, or rarely take responsibility for their actions. Depending on the session, this may lead to deeper, childhood processing, a somatic exercise, or meditation.
How do you tend to feel after a session?
It varies by client—there are some clients where I reliably feel wrung-out, and others where I feel energized.
Any specific meaningful tidbit you’ve gleaned through therapy you’d be open to sharing (e.g., a saying or way of thinking)?
Emotion is on a single-dial. You can’t experience the high-highs without the low-lows; it’s so important to let yourself grieve, and feel sorrow, because it creates access to the full richness and beauty of life.
From your experience, what do you think is something people in general or the media get wrong about therapy?
Media, in general, is not very nuanced when it comes to therapy—it’s either presented as the end-all, be-all for self-actualized people or a practice that is not to be trusted. In reality, I don’t think everyone needs a therapist, and I don’t think people need to be going to therapy all the time (pauses can be healthy!), but I do believe that people who are the most fervently anti-therapy are those who likely need it the most (and yet, it can’t be forced).
How did you find your therapist? What are you considering when you search for a therapist?
It depends what I’m looking for. When I was struggling with a specific symptom of insomnia, I looked for a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist. In reckoning with deeper existential work, I found a clinician who practices “depth work.” It often takes reading a million bios on Psychology Today, and consulting with a few!
While this may be a daunting thing to hear, it’s often true. I’ve said this before, but it’s not unlike dating. It’s worth it to be discerning. The relationship between client and therapist continues to be central to it’s effectiveness.2
How did you know they were the right fit for you?
If I feel that they both understand me and challenge me to think in new ways!
Outside of therapy, what do you consider part of supporting your mental health and well being?
Walking outside, being in community, and resting! Truly that is my trifecta of wellness, and I try my best to hit at least two of those every single day. Foundational to this is also slowing down, in general. Making sure that I am moving slowly enough to attune to myself and my body’s needs—which isn’t always possible, but is something I really try to do!
Two of the main things I go to Leslie’s newsletters for are how much she prioritizes being outside and building her community. As an introvert who loves napping more than most things, sometimes I can forget how deeply restorative those first two things are.
To you, what is a standout depiction of therapy or a therapist (e.g,. TV, movies, books, podcasts, or reality)?
I adore Orna Guralnik, who practices relational psychoanalysis, in the show Couples Therapy. It isn’t all Freud and couches!
I still need to watch this!!
What would you say to your younger self about mental health and/or therapy?
Same thing I would say to myself today—I love you, keep going.
The simple warmth and faith in this statement has got me verklempt.
Appreciative doesn’t even begin to cover how I feel having Leslie participate in this series. It holds special significance to me because something she shared in one of her newsletters years ago nudged me closer to sobriety.
If you’ll indulge me, here is an excerpt from a piece I wrote awhile back called “day one,”
“Leslie tells a story of how she attended an open AA meeting, as required by her Master’s program (I also attended some meetings as a part of my Master’s program), and found herself overcome with emotion as she began to speak about how she was there just as an observer for class. She noticed herself wondering a similar thing I had struggled with, I didn’t feel like I had a ‘real’ rock bottom and yet…
and yet, I felt a magnetic field drawing me straight toward sobriety.
and yet, being in those rooms felt like coming home.
and yet, I had this whisper, ‘What if you just didn’t drink anymore?’ in my ear.
At the end of that meeting Leslie went to, someone came up to her and shared this AA motto, ‘Your rock bottom is wherever you stop digging.’
When I read that, something in me settled.
My rock bottom was feeling disconnected and lost from my Self and my body. My rock bottom was being tired all the time. My rock bottom was failing to honor the question that was calling out to me, ‘What if?’”
Getting to have Leslie a part of this month’s interview, a week after I celebrated two years of sobriety, I think this is what we’d call a full circle moment.
If you want more Leslie in your life, check out her newsletter
. Not only does she clearly put her heart, soul and noggin into these pieces, she’s also created a beautiful community. The book clubs, writing groups, and chats (soon to be walking and running groups in cities across the globe) are sources of legitimate support and connection.
Questions for you:
We haven’t had anyone explicitly talk about psychoanalytic or existential work yet in these interviews. Anyone else had experience with the these modalities?
I appreciate Leslie talking about how breaks can be good. Anyone else found times where a break from therapy was exactly what they needed? How did you suspect you were ready?
Before you comment: As these interviews include vulnerable information, this is a disclaimer that will be at the end of every one of these interviews. A reminder to be thoughtful in any comment you choose to leave. Any abusive comments will be reported and deleted swiftly. This has been quite a friendly space so far, however I don’t think it hurts to be specific about the rules of engagement. Basically, take a breath and edit your comment to reflect something you’d be OK sending to someone you love before hitting enter, please.
Disclosure: I am an affiliate of Bookshop.org—an organization that supports local independent bookstores. I may earn a small commission if you click through and make a purchase. The thoughts and feelings written here are all my own.
Coming up: A piece on how I’m finding freedom from addictive phone habits and exploring what others bring out in us.
Disclaiming: As we just discussed, therapy can be great. This ain’t therapy. You can find more info and my full disclaimer on my about page here. Abridged version: I’m a therapist, but not your therapist—even if you are a client of mine ~hi, dear one!~ this isn’t a session. I don’t think you could possibly confuse this newsletter with mental health treatment. Alas if that were to happen, let me say definitively, dialoguing is an entertainment and informational newsletter only, not a substitute for mental health treatment. To find a mental health provider, Psychology Today or Zencare can be a place to start.
Come say hi! Any comments, questions, suggestions, please feel free to email me at dialoguingsubstack@gmail.com—or if you’re reading this via email you can just hit reply and send me a message. Love hearing from you for any and all reasons! If you DM me, please say something more than “Hi.” I always assume those are bots and will not reply.
ICYMI:
Quick therapisty thoughts on The Four Seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter
May’s round-up on what I’m reading, watching, and listening to
If you enjoy reading dialoguing, there are lots of ways to show that love: click that little “heart,” come hang in the comments, tell a friend (this is the ultimate compliment to me because I know we only send links of the highest caliber to our friends), or upgrade to a paid subscription. Whether it’s your hype, eyeballs or dollars, I’m so grateful for your support of any kind
a monthly round-up series, say more, where I explore what I'm watching, reading, listening to, eating and moving to and what it made me feel. These newsletters are a labor of love and tend to be more personal in their own specific way—sometimes writing about things I’m grappling with in real time. They have been described as “epic.” One reader said she “devour[s] them like a giant dessert.”
the entire archive of 80+ newsletters and counting. pieces like:
the awareness that you are keeping a little creative’s dream alive for another day <3
From Psychology Today, “Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a short-term form of psychotherapy based on the idea that the way someone thinks and feels affects the way he or she behaves. CBT aims to help clients resolve present-day challenges like depression or anxiety, relationship problems, anger issues, stress, or other common concerns that negatively affect mental health and quality of life. The goal of treatment is to help clients identify, challenge, and change maladaptive thought patterns in order to change their responses to difficult situations.”
“Better relationships with patients lead to better outcomes” by Tori DeAngelis for Monitor on Psychology
 | A guest post by
|
Ummm, this part - “I love you, keep going.”🥹🥹
I am going to include this in the repertoire of affirmations I say to myself (and my kids!)
I loved this interview. I love that you asked and Leslie said yes. I love the layer of sobriety that connected it all, too.
I sometimes fantasize about being a therapist. It is such important work and I feel like it’s a better match for my insides than the law career path I chose. It slips out, too. My daughter will often say, “Mom you’re talking to me with your therapy language again” She’s 11. 🤣
I especially love the distinction of process at the top of this interview. Lately I’ve been spending a lot of time distilling process versus progress. The process feels more essential.
I took a break from therapy — personal and couples’ — last year, and it was such a positive experience! It came from a place of feeling deeply supported by my therapists and deeply trusting of myself to integrate what I’d gained from our sessions and hold that space for myself for awhile. I returned to therapy earlier this year, when I realized I needed that professional support again — but that only further deepened my trust that I can and will take good care of myself (with or without professional support).